[Pankaj Raval] (0:00 – 0:06)
Hey, everyone. Welcome back to Letters of Intent. I am Pankaj Raval, Managing Partner at Carbon Law Group.

[Sahil Chaudry] (0:06 – 1:25)
And I’m Sahil Chaudhry, Associate Attorney at Carbon. We are the firm for risk takers and deal makers. So we’re excited for today’s episode with Brian Heck, the founder of the Show & Tell Trade Show.

I first met Brian when we launched Raga and Raga Man. That’s my family’s brand. I was serving as General Counsel and Brand Director for Raga.

And Brian opened the door for us to the Project Trade Show, which introduced us to buyers from the most important boutiques and department stores in the country. That eventually led to this brand, Raga, being carried today in Nordstrom and some of the most high-end specialty stores in the country. That’s all thanks to Brian.

So that was my introduction to him. I know he’s a dealmaker. I know he’s someone who has launched major brands today.

He runs the Show & Tell Trade Show that showcases major brands like K-Swiss, Goran Brothers, Ed Hardy. I’ve seen him as a corporate executive at the Project Trade Show. I’ve seen him as an entrepreneur.

Brian, welcome to the show. Thank you very much. I’m stoked to be here.

I appreciate you asking me. So Brian, I want to kind of start off with your personal journey. How did you find your way into fashion in the first place?

[Brian Hecht] (1:26 – 1:54)
Grew up in it. My parents started the clothing brand when I was about five. Actually not about five.

I was five. And so I was able to work with them going to trade shows when I was 13, but working in the warehouse and all that kind of stuff. So I got a little taste of so many different departments and it was the people that was the most exciting part about the industry.

And that’s what really drew me to it.

[Sahil Chaudry] (1:54 – 2:06)
So was there something growing up that drew you to design? Was it storytelling, brand building, sales? How did you find your role in this vast industry?

[Brian Hecht] (2:07 – 2:29)
Yeah, my parents were good at it. And my dad was very charismatic, always well-liked when we go to the events and stuff. And I think that I knew I first wanted to be in the industry for sure, probably when I was 13.

When I went to that, it was a Surf Expo trade show in Orlando.

[Sahil Chaudry] (2:29 – 2:30)
Orlando.

[Brian Hecht] (2:30 – 3:05)
Yeah. Yeah. Skateboarding was huge at the time.

I saw Kelly Slater surfing in the wave pool as a 13-year-old kid, seeing all these pro surfers and pro skaters. This is the coolest thing in the world. And of course, the trade show, that’s when it’s very exciting.

You don’t see all the hard work that everyone’s putting behind the scenes. You just see the glitz and glamour and the smiles and the fun. But I think that’s what it was that really first drew me in.

And I thought it was going to be a showroom that I owned. But it turned out, it’s an event.

[Sahil Chaudry] (3:06 – 3:28)
Okay. But tell us about that. How did you break in?

What was your first big break? And then when I met you, you were already an executive at Project, which is one of the most important trade shows in the country. You had this very cushy job with a lot of power, and then you chose to become an entrepreneur.

So tell us a little bit about that journey.

[Brian Hecht] (3:29 – 4:20)
Well, I’m still waiting for the first big break. But no, I think I’ve always, thankfully, with mentorship of parents who were in the industry longer than me, they’ve been able to provide proper guidance, and I’ve always aligned myself with companies that are A-tier, like it’s easier to look like an all-star if you’re at an A-tier company. And you learn a lot from these places.

And so while I was in college, I was working for guests at the retail store for a couple years, top seller multiple times. There we go. And then I always loved the sales part.

Even in middle school, I used to sell fake watches. Those prices are probably going up now. Right, right.

Yeah. So I used to sell fake watches in middle school.

[Sahil Chaudry] (4:20 – 4:24)
That’s a classic Garmento story. Something gray area.

[Brian Hecht] (4:24 – 8:02)
Yeah. But they knew they were fake, but I would take people’s orders and all that stuff. And then so, one, the school magazine sales, that was always my thing.

I really loved the contest. But anyway, so from guests, went to Select Showroom in LA, worked there for the first year I was in LA, and then American Rag. And then I was at Joe’s Jeans for six years.

And while I was at Joe’s, Project reached out to me and asked me to come interview. And so I was pretty excited about that. I loved my experiences at Project.

And when I was at Joe’s, I could count on writing 35% of my annual business there. That was great. And so I really believed in events and the face to face.

And it was so fun. You can’t go to one of these shows and not have fun. And if you do, then you’re doing it wrong, I promise.

And so from Project, a lot of things in the industry changed during my eight years as sales director over there. I learned a ton. I was sales director for the Vegas, New York, and Tokyo shows, and just had the opportunity to work with people from all over the world, like brands from every country imaginable, different consulates.

That was really interesting too. And then eventually, I felt forced to start Show & Tell. And it wasn’t because I needed to leave Project or anything like that.

And also, if you would have asked me any other time in my life, like, would you ever start a show? Or what do you think about starting a platform or something like that? I’m like, that’s intimidating as hell.

No, I would never do that. That sounds like too much responsibility. But eventually, after eight years at Project, I learned so much and got to work with so many different departments and launch different things.

And so many things became second nature. And all of these relationships just became really good friends where it’s like, we’re just calling each other up anytime just to talk and text and all that. So when I did my first show at Show & Tell, I didn’t even make a deck.

It was just calling up the homies like, here’s what I know is going to work. And before leaving Project to do it, I definitely talked to a significant amount of people in the industry to make sure that it was the right thing. But I already knew it was going to be the right thing because I was talking to customers every day for eight years.

And they were telling me what they’re experiencing and what they need and how their business is changing and different areas where they could see improvement and we might be able to provide that. And so after listening for so long, I’m like, all right, looks like no one else is going to do this. So, hey, I’m down.

And so it definitely made it less scary. It was just like one of those things where it’s like, maybe before you propose to your wife, it’s like, when you know, you know. You don’t have to second guess it.

It’s just like, yeah, of course this has to happen. I don’t know. That’s how I feel about it.

And I don’t remember if I even answered your question. I’m sorry. Yeah, no.

[Sahil Chaudry] (8:03 – 8:09)
I think you did. I mean, I know Bungage and I have actually both. Bungage, you walked Project as well, I think.

[Pankaj Raval] (8:09 – 8:09)
Yeah.

[Sahil Chaudry] (8:09 – 8:12)
Especially working with clients in fashion.

[Pankaj Raval] (8:13 – 8:13)
Yeah.

[Sahil Chaudry] (8:13 – 9:40)
Nice. I don’t know what you’re… What was kind of…

I think Brian’s right. I think like the trade show is very exciting. There’s money.

There are deals. There’s creativity. There’s innovation.

There’s such high energy. And I’ve actually walked Show & Tell in Chicago. And I can say it’s incredible that you’ve brought that energy to the show, but you’ve done it in a very artistic way.

If you look at your branding, it’s so specific for streetwear. And also what you’ve done is, I went to a party that you hosted as well. And I try to go to all of your parties because they’re so fun.

And there’s this combination of… No one else I’ve seen has done it this way, this well, where it’s this combination of… You go to one of your events and you just know there’s money there.

And you also know there are good people there and there are serious people there. I mean, if you go to one of your events, whether it’s Show & Tell or a party you’re hosting, you’re going to meet the fashion director of Nordstrom. You’re going to meet the most important buyers in the Midwest.

You’re going to meet the most innovative new designers, the emerging brands, and the brands you’ve seen on White Lotus. You’re going to see the cutting edge in fashion and in streetwear. Why do you think people trust you this much in the industry?

[Brian Hecht] (9:41 – 12:14)
That was such a great ad. I appreciate it. Wow, that was such a layup question.

I think it’s just caring about the people and it’s not about going… Even though we’re… My business is…

I have two shows a year right now. So basically everything I’m doing is for this February event and this August event. And of course, there’s golf tournaments that we have tied to those and other sponsorship stuff.

But like I said to you previously, I work… All these people that I work with, I’ve worked with a million times. And I think the reason is because it keeps working.

Whatever brand they might be at, they know that it’s not just going to be selling them a space. We have such a massive offering of things that we can do to provide additional exposure for brands and retailers too. Our goal is just to create an atmosphere of ideation, collaboration, friendship, good business.

I remember my mom would always ask me… She would always ask me this. Even when I was doing wholesale, like, what’s your pitch?

I’m like, what? What’s my pitch? First of all, I hate that word.

I don’t have a pitch. I have no idea what I’m going to say before we start talking. Because there’s not a blanket response for every conversation.

There’s not a blanket response for everyone’s business needs. Even though I have a wholesale trade event, people are calling me to help them for a million different reasons. They’re utilizing our event for a million different ways.

They might just come to our event because there’s one retailer that they’ve been trying to see. They want to figure out how to get in this retailer’s face in some special different way. There’s a million different things that we can do in order to help people’s business succeed.

I think that that’s how we address every conversation, by really just listening first. Because there’s no pitch if you didn’t listen. You have to listen to what the issue is and then put together a comprehensive plan to solve or help them hit said goals.

[Pankaj Raval] (12:15 – 12:17)
I think that’s a great soundbite right there.

[Brian Hecht] (12:20 – 14:29)
Our sponsors, it’s been awesome because we’re not just trying to rake in money. When we have these sponsorships and all these parties that you’ve been to, I don’t pay for those. The brands pay for those and they’re paying for those because I’m not hiking it up.

I’m not taking this margin on the party. That stuff is there to bring people together. When people come to any of our events, it’s always made to feel like you’re leaving summer camp at the end.

We want you to have established really incredible relationships over those three days. We’re going to make sure that there is programming the entire time. When people say show and tell trade show, it makes me say, oh no, there’s so much more.

It’s like because there’s the golf tournament the day before the show. That gets all the brands and retailers playing golf together for free because it’s sponsored. So many people come to me and say, I got to play golf for the very first time.

That’s really cool. They got to play with a retailer that they’ve been trying to sell. I promise you if you play with a retailer for nine holes, your chances of getting into said retailer are going to increase.

I’m not saying it’s happening, but your chances will increase. Everything is little points. Then there’s the golf awards and welcome party that night.

That’s another way to bring people together. Then the show starts the next day after these people have already hung out twice together. Sometimes three times because they were at set up.

Then before the show even starts, it’s like, all right, I’ve seen you two or three times now in the past two days. We’re going to do the head nod. We’re going to say hello.

Hey, day two of the show, we’re going to have another conversation. All of that stuff just adds up. I think that brands and more so the people have realized that’s what we’re all about.

We are here for their business because if they have a crappy show, then they’re telling more people that they had a crappy show than people that they had a good show.

[Pankaj Raval] (14:30 – 15:28)
This is great. I have so many questions about the industry. I started Fashion Law Group with a partner many years ago in LA.

We built it. We found it was a little bit too niche to just build a law firm just doing fashion. We did a lot in that world for a while.

We still have many fashion clients. I always wondered, just zooming out for a lot of the listeners, maybe who are not in the fashion world. You see fashion.

You see the Met Gala awards. That’s one type of fashion. You have streetwear, a different type of fashion.

What does it mean to be a fashion brand? How does a fashion brand become successful? How do they grow into a Versace, Gucci, or even maybe smaller ones, Off-White, whatever it might be?

What does it take to start and then build a brand from your perspective? It’s easy. Easy, easy.

I love it.

[Brian Hecht] (15:29 – 18:40)
To answer your question, real short form, it’s sales. The reason that I say it like that is because everybody thinks Amiri sells itself. Everybody thinks Rude sells itself.

Everybody thinks Burberry sells itself. No, it doesn’t. I’ve worked for $100 million companies doing wholesale before.

Those $100 million companies that I was doing wholesale for, I had 14 counterparts doing the exact same thing I was doing for a said company. We were calling all day. It’s dial for dollars.

I can’t stress it enough. You need somebody on sales all the time. Everything gets easier once the sales come in.

So many people, I know so many, so many incredible designers that their product I’m absolutely obsessed with. How is this not in a store? I’ve seen some of them at shows before.

I’m like, I see. You don’t know how to sell this. Or you’re too scared or you’re too cool or whatever it may be.

I think that it’s a 24-7 job. The job is never done when you have a brand. And also in the beginning, like Sahil can tell you this firsthand, he has worn every single hat in his company.

I do that at Show & Tell too. I do have some amazing people that help me out. If you aren’t able to wear every single hat, it’s going to be tough.

But sorry, to draw it back, I think sales is unbelievably important. But in order to be like those brands that you mentioned, everything is firing on all cylinders. You have the marketing budget.

Those guys are spending ungodly amounts on fashion shows each year. You’re seeing their product in stores and you’re like, all right, that’s $750 for some shorts. Who buys this?

It’s an interesting thing. People buy it once they’ve seen the marketing or once they’ve seen their favorite celebrities in it. But it’s a matter of understanding the shipping and your calendar and your production.

In order to get to be those guys, it’s just a ton of work and building up a great team and surrounding yourself with incredibly strong people in every single way. And that’s not a realistic thing for young brands. Because they can’t afford those people.

But I think that for young brands, it’s just a matter of working with people that you can trust. Working with people that you know have your back. A lot of times, I don’t even care how much experience they have.

It’s just, is this person a good person? And can you trust them to do their best at the job? And I think that’ll at least set you down the right path.

[Pankaj Raval] (18:41 – 19:18)
I love it. I feel like your comment on sales applies to every business. I feel like every business, sales solves a lot of problems.

Even law. Whatever it is. Professional services or you’re selling a good.

Sales solves a lot of problems. So if that’s a message to any younger listeners out there, learn sales. I think even in this world of AI, we’re always going to need people who can sell.

And I think it’s a very important message to be sending people. Focus on how to sell and how to be comfortable getting rejected too. Because I think that’s part of selling.

Yes. That’s something I learned early on too. You got to get out there and shoot your shot.

[Brian Hecht] (19:19 – 20:21)
I’m glad you mentioned that because we were talking about designers before and how designers are so soulful. They feel everything. And if you’ve been in numerous different design meetings, you’ve seen designers go crazy on people.

But a lot of these guys, like I said, you have to wear all the hats. And a lot of designers, they don’t want to put themselves out there to sell the product. They’re scared to ask for the sale.

And my advice to them is always you owe it to yourself to show this off. You put everything you had into designing this. No one else is going to do it for you.

You have to have your own back and make sure that you’re going to get ROI on it. Show it to as many people as you possibly can and do it with confidence because you know that’s that shit. You made it.

So early on, you’re not going to be able to afford the top salespeople that have every connection. So you got to do it yourself. Put yourself out there.

[Pankaj Raval] (20:21 – 20:22)
You got to be one.

[Brian Hecht] (20:23 – 20:23)
Yeah, exactly. Have the confidence.

[Pankaj Raval] (20:24 – 20:25)
Yeah, I love it.

[Sahil Chaudry] (20:25 – 23:02)
Brian, when we were growing up, I think we saw both of our parents come out of trade shows with these huge POs. And that was the industry. That was how money flowed in the industry.

I remember seeing Desigual do this art installation. You had these giant installations because there was so much money in the market that was coming from the top, especially the top department stores and even boutiques, frankly. I mean you could come out of a trade show with multiple six-figure POs.

And then the market changed. At some point, we had direct consumer. We had the internet disrupt the market.

And we saw major changes of how capital flowed into our industry. I remember I went to Agenda, maybe this was in 2018, and someone had a trade show booth that said RIP Wholesale, which didn’t turn out to be true actually. But I think wholesale is now part of a multi-factor diet that you have as a fashion brand.

You’ve got to have an omni-channel selling strategy now. Right after the pandemic, I mean actually even right before the pandemic, you saw a lot of tech companies get into fashion. You have Revolve.

You have Fashion Nova where you see this blending of tech, e-commerce, and fashion that just exploded. And I think the companies that really thrive, have thrived in the last few years, were the ones that were able to adapt to technology as a marketing platform, speaking of how important sales are. And then that did pull away from wholesale for a while.

And then I noticed when Facebook ads got really expensive and it became really difficult to sell online through Facebook and Instagram and the market got very saturated. You had an explosion of these independent brands online. I saw a return to wholesale where, okay, there are some barriers to entry.

There are some tastemakers. There’s some vetting. Today, we’re dealing with post-pandemic shifts.

We’re dealing with direct consumer fatigue and costs. You’re dealing with tariffs now. From your perspective, where’s the money today?

How is the money flowing? Is there venture capital? Is there private equity?

Is this PO finance? Is the money coming from the stores? Where is, show me the money.

Where is the money?

[Brian Hecht] (23:03 – 24:12)
The money right now, when you’re building a stock portfolio, you’re diversifying. Back in the day when we would go to the shows with our parents, there was one or two shows. Now everyone is spreading their money out because nobody knows what the hell is happening.

And so people are going wholesale. People are going direct to consumer. There’s so many different areas that you have to be diversified in because it could change daily for you right now.

I wish that more people had production split between other countries. I know my parents always did that previously when we didn’t have this going on. And I think that it was, God forbid, should anything like this happen.

And right now I know a lot of companies that are just doing production in one country, and these are multi-million dollar companies.

[Pankaj Raval] (24:12 – 24:28)
You have to have supply chain. How important is the supply chain in fashion? Nowadays we’re seeing the globalization of it.

How important is it? Because that’s interesting. It’s pretty smart of your parents even back then to be diversifying in their supply chain and sourcing.

[Brian Hecht] (24:28 – 24:32)
Well, now you ask me a question after I just told you sales was the most important.

[Pankaj Raval] (24:32 – 24:33)
Yeah, that’s right.

[Brian Hecht] (24:34 – 24:36)
So without the supply chain.

[Pankaj Raval] (24:37 – 24:38)
Welcome to the fashion industry.

[Brian Hecht] (24:39 – 25:20)
But I was really excited to see one of your recent episodes where you were telling people where other countries where they can go for production. And that was so exciting to hear because that’s not things that a lot of the media companies that the guys I work with are following. They’re not hearing about this kind of stuff.

And so I thought that was really cool. But anyway, supply chain right now is incredibly important because all of the brands I’m working with don’t even know what to make their pricing because it is changing daily.

[Sahil Chaudry] (25:20 – 25:37)
Brian, I was reading this morning 97% of American apparel is made overseas. And right now you’re talking about 145% tariff on China. We have a 90-day pause but there’s a 46% proposed tariff on Vietnam.

[Brian Hecht] (25:37 – 25:42)
I thought it went up in China yesterday. Above 145%?

[Sahil Chaudry] (25:43 – 25:44)
Yeah. Wow. Okay.

[Brian Hecht] (25:45 – 25:47)
So I mean basically it’s cost prohibited.

[Sahil Chaudry] (25:47 – 27:06)
Imagine even if your margin is something – gross margin, let’s say cost of goods, let’s estimate it could be around 50%. If you’re talking about 145% tariff, your margin is crushed. I mean you are – it will be very, very difficult to do business at all.

And I think the thing that – in the big picture, it’s not such a – philosophically it’s a good idea to bring domestic manufacturing to the U.S. But practically speaking, a lot of small to mid-size apparel brands could face a lot of tough circumstances along the way and might – will have a really difficult time surviving. And I feel like those are the brands in this sector, the independent brands that are in the project show and tell world. So I think one thing at least right now during this 90-day pause, we can give some practical advice here is looking at countries like Vietnam that right now are just dealing with a 10% universal tariff.

That would be one place to look. Countries like India, Bangladesh that have really robust apparel industries. I mean it’s taken decades for these countries to build out that infrastructure.

So I think one practical piece of advice to our listeners here is to diversify your supply chain.

[Brian Hecht] (27:07 – 27:10)
Absolutely. South America is great too.

[Sahil Chaudry] (27:10 – 27:11)
Okay, interesting. Yeah.

[Brian Hecht] (27:12 – 27:22)
Here’s something odd. Yeah. Something I realized after I’ve been in L.A. and meeting with a lot of brands each day.

[Sahil Chaudry] (27:22 – 27:23)
Yeah.

[Brian Hecht] (27:23 – 27:27)
You want to know how many said they’re moving production to the U.S.? How many?

[Sahil Chaudry] (27:27 – 27:31)
Right, exactly. Brian just showed us zero.

[Brian Hecht] (27:32 – 28:14)
Even on all of these tariffs still, it’s not going to move to the U.S. Yeah. At least right now for any number of reasons. Well, the first reason being that it’s so expensive.

Right, exactly. So yeah, all of those countries that you mentioned too also make great products. Yeah.

It’s unfortunate because China makes great products too. Right, right. I’m certainly holding out hope because we – I personally believe that we have to have a global economy.

Right. In order for everyone to have the best lives possible.

[Sahil Chaudry] (28:14 – 28:55)
And that’s how the apparel industry has been built so far. So when people are dealing with – you’ve seen a lot of brands do deals with suppliers, with their buyers. What are the pitfalls of doing deals as a small brand?

Like where are the places they could get taken advantage of that you’ve seen? Like when you’re working with brands, you’ve got these brands that sign up with you or you have these brands that you work with who participate in show and tell. And I’m sure many of them come to you for advice as a veteran of the industry or as a seasoned executive in the industry.

So if you’re a small brand and you’re trying to make a deal with a supplier or your buyer, what are the things you should look out for?

[Brian Hecht] (28:56 – 30:34)
Majors ask for massive discounts. A lot of young brands feel like they have to be in a major because that’s the only way they’ve made it. That is not true.

Typically, my advice is if you’re a young brand, you’re not ready to sell a major. When you do, you’re going to get a Bible of a book that you need to read just about shipping. That’s not fun.

So my wife actually does 3PL, so she’s very well-versed in that kind of stuff, e-com 3PL kind of stuff. But anyway, brands get taken advantage because they drop their pants for majors quite often just to get in that door. Or they’ll go consignment with an account that maybe they shouldn’t go consignment with and then not take advantage of the fact that they’re in that store.

If you are selling someone consignment, I know this is slightly off track, but if you’re selling someone consignment, make sure that the store was worth it. It’s an A-tier door in your category that you can at least call other retailers and say, hey, we’re in this door. Now you want to buy it?

In better words, not. But that’s the main idea. Typically, you only want to sell consignment to someone if you can utilize that to your advantage down the road because otherwise you’re not getting paid your full amount typically and things like that.

But majors, chargebacks, on top of the large discount that they already asked you for before said chargebacks happened.

[Sahil Chaudry] (30:36 – 30:50)
Then they’re asking for terms too. You’re talking about sometimes net 45, net 60, and then you’ve got to deal with a PO financier or a factor, and then that’s cutting into your margin.

[Brian Hecht] (30:52 – 32:02)
Yeah, that’s cutting into your margin. If you can carry your own paper, that’s always best. I would typically advise that early on.

Don’t get ahead of yourself. Even with show and tell, I don’t have any outside financing. We’re growing at an organic pace that I feel comfortable with.

Been offered outside financing 10,000 times. Don’t want it. Don’t need it.

I don’t say don’t need it because I have tons of money. That’s not what I mean. You mentioned the net 60.

A lot of times these days when I hear of a buyer asking for net 60, it’s net 90 actually or net never. That’s a difficult thing. Also, if you’re working with a factor, make sure you’ve spoken with all of the other factors and make sure you’re getting the best rates.

It’s just like when you get a credit card. Actually, I know a lot of times people get a credit card, they don’t even ask the rates.

[Sahil Chaudry] (32:02 – 32:03)
Yeah, exactly.

[Brian Hecht] (32:03 – 32:35)
It’s crazy. The credit card company will hide it from you until the day they die. Then you ask them for it on the phone and they’re like, what?

All right, let me transfer you over. I’ll get you. Anyway, brands are getting taken advantage of because sometimes they just feel like they have to be in said door no matter what.

That costs them a lot sometimes. There’s a million ways, but that’s first off the top of my head.

[Sahil Chaudry] (32:36 – 33:52)
One other area which I know, Bunga, you’ve dealt with a lot is IP. Copyright, trademarks. Brian, you highlighted something too, which is that for some reason in the fashion industry, especially among small to midsize companies, they just don’t ask questions.

They don’t ask questions. They don’t do the math sometimes. Sometimes they don’t even know they need to ask the right question.

For example, when it comes to copyright or trademark, who owns your brand? Who owns that design? Did that factory just take someone else’s print and give it to you and now you’re going to be on the hook for a lawsuit?

That kind of stuff can happen. What we’ve seen is that law is noticeably absent in these deals. That’s probably because these are small companies and we don’t want to spend money on lawyers.

Are there some areas where you feel like, okay, we definitely need as an industry to add some legal architecture here, whether it’s agreements or your formation documents or IP. Do you feel like there’s some room where we need some more legal education?

[Brian Hecht] (33:53 – 34:48)
I thought we’re getting away from regulation. Yes, 100 billion percent. Some examples of that.

When my parents were doing production in Peru, there was a really well-known brand at the time out of New Zealand. My dad was touring the factory where he was already doing work. They were already doing production for them for quite some time.

He sees this brand with the tag and it says 100% organic. My dad’s like, what? You guys do all organic?

They’re like, no. He’s like, why does that say that in there? They’re like, because they told us to put that.

That’s being exported, obviously. It’s being exported all over the world. Nobody’s checking it.

It wasn’t even illegal, I don’t believe. It should be, but that’s insane to me.

[Sahil Chaudry] (34:51 – 34:58)
There’s this line people draw where they’re like, oh, well, it’s not certified organic. It’s just a marketing term.

[Brian Hecht] (34:59 – 36:17)
With regard to organic product, natural dyes, all that stuff, it’s very, very hard to make something completely organic, biodegradable, all of that. In order to do that, off the top of my head, I know of one company that does that. I probably should know of more.

I wish there were more, but it’s just so hard and it’s so expensive. I remember when I was at Informa, the sourcing show, their team had to take on this big responsibility of checking all of the factories of everyone that produced every single thing that was exhibiting there. It took so much back-end research of every single company at the show.

Big ups, Informa, for doing this. That was pretty cool because the people have a right to know what they’re buying and it’s easy to get sold a line of goods. Informa took it on themselves to actually do the work, check everything, and that just made them a more credible sourcing source.

But nobody does that. It should be a legal thing.

[Sahil Chaudry] (36:17 – 36:20)
Yeah, exactly.

[Brian Hecht] (36:20 – 36:58)
When people can print anything they want on a tag that the consumer is buying and maybe the consumer is allergic to said thing, who knows? That could cause a major issue. I 100% believe in more regulation, the better.

Also, with more regulation, maybe that could make things in the U.S. better for us down the road. On the fashion side, if we’re enforcing anything that we take into our country has to check all these boxes, I don’t know if every country could check every box.

[Sahil Chaudry] (36:59 – 37:53)
I noticed that a lot more factories became WRAP certified and there were other kind of fair labor and environmental standards that the stores were enforcing and they had the market power probably because the customers were demanding it. So that was definitely positive, but most brands may not even know that you can look for that. You could look for factories that are labor compliant, environmentally compliant, and then you could do that in a real way and pass that information to your customer.

I just feel like also a lot of the deals that get made, people are missing these major components when it comes to licensing or equity or IP and copyright trademark. It just feels like there’s very little room because people are just struggling and fighting for their next order that it’s like, hey, that’s an afterthought. I just need to make it.

[Brian Hecht] (37:54 – 38:32)
Yeah, 100%. Starting out show and tell, I would send out my contract to certain sponsors that I worked with and still work with. Everything works fine, but they were really big companies and their attorney couldn’t sign our contracts.

We didn’t have any… Literally, new company, didn’t have the money to hire an attorney and do all these things. So we cobbled it together with our old show contracts and all this and that, not saying old shows, but cobbled everything together.

And then working with some of these billion dollar companies, like, oh, we can’t sign your contract because of X, Y, Z.

[Sahil Chaudry] (38:34 – 38:36)
You’re dealing with an army of lawyers.

[Brian Hecht] (38:37 – 38:41)
Yeah, and they’re just like, can you just send us an invoice? And I’m like, fine, don’t worry about the contract.

[Sahil Chaudry] (38:41 – 38:42)
Right, yeah.

[Brian Hecht] (38:44 – 39:39)
But thankfully it worked out because I knew the people, I trusted them and all that kind of stuff. But, oh my gosh. I’ve just seen so many people get screwed and now finally we’re at a point where now I’m really, really into contracts.

But with licensing agreements, don’t ever sign a licensing agreement without talking to an attorney. Those things are so unbelievably complicated and one line can throw it all off. It’s like three quarters of the way down the 75th page and it’s just insane.

And I used to work, I was doing some consulting for the NBA and when I got brought on, they sent me a book of like 140 pages just on what their logo means and just about their licenses and all that. I didn’t read it.

[Pankaj Raval] (39:41 – 39:45)
Right. I skimped it. TLDR. Yeah, yeah.

[Brian Hecht] (39:45 – 40:27)
But I did read the contract that I signed with them and I had other people read that too. But, yeah, I can’t stress enough. Actually, I have a, this is kind of interesting.

I have a buddy who is partners with a celebrity and this brand is a very cool brand. They’ve had multiple offers for acquisition, 30, $40 million range. They’ve been rejected each time.

My buddy would love to have his percentage, he’s a part owner, but the celebrity is a bigger percentage owner in making the money.

[Sahil Chaudry] (40:27 – 40:27)
Oh, wow.

[Brian Hecht] (40:28 – 40:37)
Right. Celebrity doesn’t need the money. Yeah.

And so my buddy’s like- Stuck. Yeah. He’s like, damn, that was supposed to be my big payout.

[Sahil Chaudry] (40:37 – 40:38)
Right, right.

[Brian Hecht] (40:40 – 40:42)
But he’s going to be fine.

[Sahil Chaudry] (40:43 – 40:47)
Yeah, but I know what you mean. It’s like we don’t game out these scenarios when you’re starting a business.

[Brian Hecht] (40:47 – 41:11)
Yeah. And you’re like, all right, well, cool. I get to be partners with this person.

The money’s going to come in. And then that’s like one of those things where it’s somewhere deep in the contract, worded 50 million different ways, and it’s something that an attorney should look at and help you navigate in said scenario. Because at the time when he was signing that contract, he never imagined that 30, $40 million offer comes along and they’re going to reject it.

[Pankaj Raval] (41:11 – 41:12)
Right. Yeah.

[Brian Hecht] (41:12 – 42:35)
So there needs to be something there where he knows he’s going to be okay if the company weren’t to sell. How would you know to ask those questions if you’ve never been through that? Like all the time, I’ll go through things and I’ll talk to mentor, parents, whatever it may be.

Thankfully, we have great networks of people that can help guide us. Don’t ever be afraid to ask questions. Utilize your network, always.

But I’ll go to them and they’re like, well, didn’t you ask this? And I’m like, damn, what a dumb, easy question that I should have thought of. And the answer is no, of course I didn’t ask that because I didn’t even know to ask through it.

I’ve never been through this before. And so when it comes to licensing and IP, a strong amount of the cool brands that I know of that get these really cool licenses these days, it’s their first time entering in the idea of a licensing agreement. And they’ll call me asking questions just because they might think that I know more than anyone else about it.

And maybe I do know more than anyone else they know because they just don’t know that many people in the industry. And I’m sitting there like, man, I don’t know. I’m not an attorney.

And so I’ll make some recommendations and things like that.

[Sahil Chaudry] (42:36 – 42:43)
Brian, you told me once you can be cool or you can be rich, but you can’t be both. Is that still true?

[Brian Hecht] (42:44 – 44:02)
Still funny. There were so many guys that I would have on my aspirational hit list that I wanted to work with. And now after being in the industry and I viewed them as the coolest guys in the world and they just didn’t want to talk to me for the longest time, multiple years.

And now that I’ve been in the business so long and developed friendships, now I finally have been able to convince a lot of these guys, hey, being events is cool because you make some money. Yeah, that’s right. Like I previously said, I would book 35% of my annual business at a show like to be able to count on booking 35% of your annual business.

That is a luxury. It’s really tough to be able to say things like that these days to collect that much from one avenue. When you’re too cool for school and you’re not being nice and you’re not welcoming people and inviting people to take a look at what you’re doing and putting yourself out there, that money is not going to come.

So it’s like enjoy what you’re doing. Call people up. Go out for lunch and just don’t be too cool.

Don’t be too cool. It’s cool to make money.

[Pankaj Raval] (44:02 – 44:03)
That’s what’s cool.

[Brian Hecht] (44:03 – 44:05)
And life gets a lot easier.

[Pankaj Raval] (44:05 – 44:05)
I love that.

[Brian Hecht] (44:05 – 44:14)
And then you don’t have to be that cool person that doesn’t want to talk to anybody and just thinks that everyone’s going to come look at your product because it’s so cool.

[Pankaj Raval] (44:14 – 44:52)
I mean, it’s so true. I think you’ve got to risk being uncool and maybe people thinking you’re weird or whatever might be because those are the people that actually get ahead. Those are the people that are actually able to open doors because you’ve got to knock.

You’ve got to try. You’ve got to get rejected. And sometimes that’s not cool, but those are the people that actually win at the end of the day and get the furthest, I think.

So I think that’s a great piece of advice to anyone listening, especially new entrepreneurs, people starting businesses. Don’t try to be cool. Do things that actually will move things forward for you and keep pushing because that’s the only way I think you’re going to be able to be successful.

Yeah.

[Brian Hecht] (44:52 – 46:13)
And on the note of rejection, too. If you’re a brand like just because you get rejected one time by the buyer, you still have three more seasons that year. So you better be reaching out at least two to three more times per season the rest of that year.

Right. So they rejected you once. Don’t worry, you can still get rejected by them six more times that year and then you might sell them the next year or the next year or the next year.

But a lot of times the retailer wants to see that you’re going to be around. They want to see that you have been around. They want to see.

They’re like, all right, this person’s been hitting me up for three years. All right. They’re still at this job.

The brand is still paying them like that means things are working. They must be shipping somebody. It must be selling for somebody if the same person keeps reaching out.

So a lot of times that persistence pays off always. And it’s really cool when you’ve been out of place for so many years that you’ve been able to see that through. Like when you make that target list on year one and then by the time you exit said business, you’re like, yeah, I got to work with a lot of these guys that were on this list.

And sometimes it did take a few years, but it happened. So, yeah, don’t be afraid of rejection. Persistence pays off.

[Pankaj Raval] (46:14 – 46:46)
So I have one question about IP because I do a lot of IP work. We’ve helped Sahil and a lot of people with IP matters, even trademarks. You talk about a brand, building a brand.

How many issues have you seen with trademarks with your clients or with people you’ve worked with? Do you feel like how important is it that they lock it down early? Or do you feel people have been able to wait and been okay?

Like what are your thoughts on brand protection and trademarks in the world of fashion? Nah, it’s not important.

[Brian Hecht] (46:46 – 48:58)
No, it’s just unbelievably, unbelievably important. There was a guy I worked with about, I don’t know, eight years, no, 10 years ago. He was on Shark Tank and he built his whole business on suing people that would steal his patents.

He had patents for all these pockets. He has commercials on TV all the time. It’s probably been like two years since I’ve seen the commercials, maybe.

But anyway, I’m sure he’s still around. Very smart dude, but not the way that I would want to conduct business per se. Right.

To build a business just going after people. But these brands shouldn’t have been taking his idea and doing it all. But I don’t even know if they knew it was his idea.

He found the loophole where he was able to patent these things and had, I don’t know, maybe 100 different lawsuits and he would constantly win and all this stuff. And it was just like, oh man. I felt like it was a slimy way to conduct business on his end.

But he knew how to do it right. He understood the loopholes and all that. But that’s one crazy example.

But on the other side, I see brands get knocked off multiple times a week. I see line sheets from countless brands where I’m like, oh man, that’s pretty damn similar to that one. I can’t share it with the guys.

And I’ll have brands that will say, don’t put me anywhere near them. We’re in a lawsuit with them. Or, oh, they knocked us off.

Or, oh, that’s literally our design right there that we’re releasing in the same season. And they saw it, blah, blah, blah. So people will be asked to move immediately.

Yeah, you definitely have to protect yourself. And you’re going to see issues with that a lot more moving forward now.

[Sahil Chaudry] (48:59 – 48:59)
Yeah.

[Brian Hecht] (48:59 – 49:02)
Especially with China having the floodgates open.

[Sahil Chaudry] (49:04 – 49:20)
That’s – they’re so good at it. Have you seen what’s going on with Chinese TikTok? The factories are exposing which designer brands are having most of the handbags produced in the factory before they get repackaged in Europe.

[Pankaj Raval] (49:20 – 49:20)
No way.

[Sahil Chaudry] (49:20 – 50:38)
So that they can maintain their – yeah. So speaking of trademark, it’s very interesting what’s about to happen because China has been considered this solely manufacturing hub for a long time. And India was too, but I think India is gaining a lot more design cachet.

But with China now, they’re revealing, hey, we’re the ones designing and building these products. And that’s going to affect the value of that intellectual property too. All of a sudden, if they’re going to flood the internet with this information that your Gucci or Hermes bag or product is actually worth a lot less or the cost is a lot less than what you’re paying, yeah, it’s going to affect the market.

And you’re talking about – you probably are talking a lot about IP that’s – or patents that have gone into the bags that have been designed in many instances outside of China. Maybe some have been designed in China. But the internet is now this wild west of IP and this industry too is full of knock – I mean it’s a knockoff-based industry.

Zara has built a multibillion-dollar public company off of knockoffs. So it’s really hard to know what you’re allowed to do and what you’re not allowed to do.

[Brian Hecht] (50:38 – 52:25)
That’s why I was going to say for apparel brands in the fashion industry, they’re not going to – like a lot of times, they don’t know the ways they can protect themselves or what they should protect. And I so highly recommend that they talk to somebody like you guys just to – so you can tell them like – It’s our job, yeah. Yeah, all right.

Here’s what you can do. Here’s what you can’t do. But when you go to – a lot of times when you’re at an event, you got to pick the lesser of two evils because you’re literally at the event with all these companies that have the capabilities to knock you off.

A lot of times, you’re at the event with designers from other companies or sourcing people and things like that. And a lot of times, you typically – if someone is taking a picture of your space from far away, don’t let that happen. But like so many people just don’t know how they can protect themselves, what should be protected.

A lot of times, you’ll sell to a retailer and the retailer realizes that you guys have great selling for a while and then said retailer will knock you off. I’m going to cut you. And there are some that are notorious for that, that people still want to work with and they feel like they have to be in there.

And I’m not saying that they should or shouldn’t, but it’s just risks. But without knowing what you can and cannot protect, you will get taken advantage of. I see it with small brands all the time that are doing such cool shit and then you just see Zara do it.

Zara do it the next season or whatever. Like these guys move quick. They move so, so fast.

And yeah, it’s certainly worth just knowing what you can do.

[Sahil Chaudry] (52:25 – 52:46)
We want to close with some words of advice from you. You’ve seen the industry from many different angles from the brand perspective as someone who’s an entrepreneur running a trade show, seeing the industry and where it’s going. What’s your best piece of advice for a fashion founder who’s getting ready to apply to show and tell?

[Brian Hecht] (52:47 – 52:58)
Prepare. Preparation is unbelievably important. Do your due diligence.

Wait, we have two more hours, right? I’m just kidding.

[Pankaj Raval] (52:58 – 53:03)
Yeah, exactly. We might need a part two. Yeah, exactly.

[Brian Hecht] (53:03 – 54:19)
Yeah, I think be prepared to listen once you get there. Listen to what the retailers are telling you. Maybe they’re telling you something that makes sense.

Maybe they’re telling you something that they need from you. Maybe they’re giving you messaging that you’re realizing, hmm, maybe this isn’t the right partner for me. And I think a lot of times it’s just going to be listen.

Reach out to brands who have done the show before. Ask them how they achieve success. Ask them what keeps them coming back.

How can I do X in order to keep getting ROI? Once you are on board for any event, all you need to be thinking about is, all right, how can I get ROI at said event? And it’s not going to be just showing up and smiling, because I promise you there are snipers on that show floor that are so damn good at sales and they will take that buyer for an hour or two hours.

And because the buyer didn’t even know you existed, you didn’t reach out to the buyer five times before the show.

[Pankaj Raval] (54:20 – 54:21)
Interesting.

[Brian Hecht] (54:22 – 57:32)
It’s one thing that we do that a lot of shows cannot do is we provide contacts, our registration list to everybody. When I do that, when I send that out to people, I’m not sending it out just so you can see that those buyers are there. I’m providing those contacts and those email addresses so that you can reach out to that buyer numerous times before the show and get on their radar.

They’re not going to respond to you the first time. They’re not going to respond to you the second time. If they’ve never made money with you, it’s so typical that they’re not going to respond to you early on.

And so figure out how to get in touch with them. Someone was asking me the other day, but how do I structure the email? And I was like, well, have the emails been working for you?

And they’re like, no. I’m like, well, then why do you want to structure an email? And there are so many other ways to get in front of a buyer.

Why are you emailing a buyer 50 times that lives in the same city as you? Go to them. Go to their source.

Figure out why they need your product. Tell them, like when you can go to them with an educated, bad word pitch, I hate that word. When you can go to them and say, I know this is going to work because I’ve spoken to the sales team on your floor and they said that people are looking for more of this.

Hey, I have this for you right here. I have it as an immediate. You know, just it’s DM them a lot of like text them.

Think about like if you get an email from one of your friends or you get a DM or a text from one of your friends, I will be pretty sure you’re going to respond to the email last. You’ll probably respond to the text first. You’ll probably respond to the DM second to last because you checked IG when you’re at lunch or whatever it may be.

And then email is like down there with the rest of your emails, right? Oh, that’s my friend. Like I’ll get back to them later.

Like there’s just so many ways that people can reach out and get in touch these days and don’t just look at it as, oh, I just have to send this email because everybody else is doing that. When I used to work at American Rag, there was a local showroom that would come in and they brought gift baskets for the buyer. But they ran in the store and they hid them in their office.

And I was like, that’s smart. That’s very cool. People would bring us donuts.

Like I was on the sales floor. I was wearing an apron. But I felt really cool that the designers cared enough about me to bring me donuts or coffee.

And, you know, of course, I know they had a motive. Yeah, but I don’t care. They were nice to me.

And, you know, we had a nice conversation and they cared enough to talk to me and get a better feeling for what our business was about so that they could make a better pitch. And, of course, when they did those nice things, I would go and tell our buyer, hey, these guys just came in and blah, blah, blah. So, again, preparation, preparation.

It’s being able to be rejected on every single DM, LinkedIn, snail mail in person, all of those things. But, like, just put yourself out there.

[Pankaj Raval] (57:33 – 58:00)
Amazing. I mean, I love it. Yeah, so true.

I think this goes with, like, you know, I’m thinking about we work a lot of startups and you’re trying to raise money. Same thing, you know, whether it’s a buyer or investor or advisor, you know, you got to be persistent, right? And you got to kind of chase them and go after them.

Or a job, right? Whoever it might be that you’re trying to get in front of, you know, email. Don’t just rest there.

You really got to chase them for where they are and be persistent, you know. And I do believe squeaky wheel gets the grease in life, you know.

[Brian Hecht] (58:01 – 58:12)
Yes. 100, 100. Sometimes it’s unfortunate because sometimes the squeaky wheel can be such a pain in the ass and so annoying, but they are going to get that grease.

That’s, yeah.

[Pankaj Raval] (58:12 – 58:25)
Anything you’d like to plug? And also, how do people find you if they want to learn more about what you do? Maybe apply to Show & Tell?

You know, how do people find you? Anything you’d like to plug? Anything coming up?

[Brian Hecht] (58:26 – 59:19)
Yeah. Our next event is Show & Tell in August, August 4th and 5th. And we will have our second annual golf tournament on August 3rd.

We released our preview issue of the magazine this past February and we have our first issue of the Show & Tell magazine coming out this August at the show. It’s not about the show. It’s about the culture.

But we are at Show & Tell events. It’s underscores. Show underscore and underscore tell underscore events.

That’s the IG. Email is brian, B-R-I-A-N, at showandtellevent.com. So there’s the S on the IG.

There is not the S on the email. Sometimes things are taken for granted.

[Pankaj Raval] (59:19 – 59:28)
And if he doesn’t get back to you on email, he told you what else you need to do. Exactly. Bring him donuts.

Don’t be too cool.

[Brian Hecht] (59:28 – 59:50)
Actually, I will. Let me plug this real quick. We don’t need any donuts.

We have the best food of any event in the entire country. We work with an incredible chef named Won Kim. He won chopped.

Oh, wow. He makes smoked duck, lobster rolls, A5 Wagyu. That is what people at Show & Tell eat.

[Pankaj Raval] (59:50 – 59:55)
I’m sold right there. Come get your stuff. You don’t have anything to sell there.

I was going to come for the food.

[Brian Hecht] (59:56 – 1:00:00)
Yeah, no. Whatever reason brings you in, just come.

[Pankaj Raval] (1:00:02 – 1:00:03)
That’s awesome.

[Brian Hecht] (1:00:03 – 1:00:11)
By the way, our website is www.ShowAndTellEvent.com.

[Pankaj Raval] (1:00:11 – 1:00:39)
So www.ShowAndTellEvent.com. Yes. All right.

This has been such a pleasure, Brian. It’s been so great talking to you. Everything Sahil said about you is true and more.

You are really a wealth of knowledge. And it’s incredible to see what you’ve built over these years. And just your deep knowledge of the fashion industry and your willingness to give back, too, is really, really, really incredible.

So we really, really thank you for being on the podcast.

[Brian Hecht] (1:00:40 – 1:00:56)
Well, Pankaj, Sahil, I’m immensely grateful that you guys gave me the platform, the opportunity, enjoyed the conversation. These are the conversations I love to have. Sahil knows that.

But I’m grateful that you guys thought of me to invite me on. So thank you.